Coaching Directory › Forums › 3four3 Content › Playing out of the back activity to fit 7v7/8v8 format
This topic contains 28 replies, has 18 voices, and was last updated by Chris Ryder 10 years, 7 months ago.
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December 18, 2013 at 12:14 pm #641
I see how much of it can relate to any age group. However, I would like to ask Gary or others how you would adapt the set tactical training for the 7v78v8 environment (U9-U12 in our area leagues). We play a 3-2-1 and 3-3-1 at 8v8 with; however, looking at the spacing and ability for players to play long passes at that age, I’m trying figure out how to each swinging the ball across the back.
Here are my initial thoughts and feel free to correct me if I’m wrong. Our “backline” which is part of the “U” would be LB, GK, RB. Our CB would be more of a CB/DCM type player who could show in the middle back and forth across the field.
1) Am I off with thinking this is the best way to introduce swinging around the back. We teach our teams that in possession, our GK is as much of a component to keeping possession as any other player so this would integrate that aspect.
2) If thinking towards a 4-3-3 at 11v11, is it best to use 3-2-1 and 3-3-1 (with the outside mids playing more like a 11 and 7) at the younger ages?
Ryan
December 18, 2013 at 12:49 pm #649In your back 3- operate the same way, just minus one center back. The field at that age SHOULD be more narrow and the lone CB shouldn’t have TOO much space to cover himself. He’ll want to drop back just a little bit to give himself some depth and create the proper passing angles for swinging the ball. You don’t want your OB’s playing square balls to your CB. Then, you’re risking getting picked off by their forwards and it’s off to the races.
When you’re swinging the ball from side to side, as soon as the CB turns to play one way, that outside back gets wide and high (same as what is presented in the eBook). The outside back behind the play then tucks in and shifts over with CB (just as they would if there were 4 in the back line). One of your mids has to act as a holder, or they both have to learn and rotate in and out of the space and share that role. Your GK should definitely be getting involved and get comfortable moving side to side with the play. He will always be the outlet when there is too much pressure
December 18, 2013 at 1:10 pm #653Thanks for the reply! You’d be surprised how wide some of these fields can be.
In any case, I tend to have our players imagine a diamond between our GK, LB, RB, and CB (DCM). Therefore, our CB isn’t so much on a line with the outside backs but on a different line at a diagonal.
I appreciate your input.
December 18, 2013 at 3:23 pm #662John and Gary are much more qualified to address this issue, so listen to whatever they say. I just wanted to make two comments:
1. Serious kudos to you for including the keeper in your plan for maintaining possession. I work with keepers; it frustrates me how many coaches don’t even think about their involvement in the build-up, or intentionally exclude them.
2. My (limited) understanding is that possession-based teams generally aim to create overloads in all areas and especially in the center of the field. In this framework, the formation is variable, though most possession-based teams I know of (including the Kleiban’s) play some version of a 4-3-3. Perhaps approaching this question from the angle of “What formation will allow me to create overloads in first third, middle third, and final third?” could be helpful? I can see several different formations working in 7v7 and 8v8, depending on how you want to progress through the phases of play…
December 18, 2013 at 3:34 pm #663I agree that we try to impress upon the players that we want overloads based on ball’s location. One relatively simple idea that we talk about from U9+ is creating left/right/split options for whoever has the ball and the 1st attacker must know what their left/right/split options should be before receiving the ball.
I would love to get Gary and Brian’s input on this matter; however, my preference is to get the LB and RB involved up the field so I like giving the possibility of them overlapping, even at 7v7 or 8v8. Therefore, 3 at the back. However, I’ve moved to having our LCM and RCM (in a 3-2-1) shift across the field. For example, the RCM moves wide to the sideline to support the RB when building out of the back or from a goal kick.
December 18, 2013 at 5:04 pm #667Hi Ryan,
I personally have never jumped into the 7v7 or 8v8 game. The earliest I got hooked on the young ones was at 11v11 at U11 … but here’s an email response Brian gave a while ago when he was doing the U9s and U10s:We play 3-3-1 to prepare the transition for the 4-3-3 or 3-4-3.
The main stress in the 3-3-1 is to get the ball wide to the the mf’s playing wide…they are your typical wingers in the 4-3-3. We work on creating 2 v 1 situations with our outside backs projecting forward to create these 2 v 1 scenarios. When this happens the weak side defender stays home and shifts to create balance. All in all, it’s a matter of teaching the positioning an expectation for each possession in possession and when defending.
December 18, 2013 at 5:27 pm #671Thanks, that helps put me on the right track!
December 18, 2013 at 5:34 pm #672If you’re looking to get your outside backs to overlap or to create overloads on the wings… you are going to have a difficult time having your CB/DCM at the top of that diamond you’re describing. I would recommend using the CB/DCM as a pivot behind the two OBs with the goalie as another safety outlet. It does put more responsibility on the two mids to move in and out of the space.
If you’re really worried about getting the keeper involved what you’re better off doing is getting your GK, CB, and OB into positions that create 3v1 triangles when necessary to play out of tight spots at the back and maintain possession instead of opting for a long ball out of pressure.
What you ultimately want to create is 2v1 on the wings and get that OB hauling ass up the sideline. You don’t want to be left stranded with just one at the back in the event the other teams shuts you down and counters with quick dribbling or a long ball (two most likely situations).
What you’re describing would be more of a 2-3-1 in my opinion. I don’t think that’s the right route to go and doesn’t transition to the next level appropriately…….. but thats just my opinion 🙂
- This reply was modified 10 years, 11 months ago by John Pranjic.
December 21, 2013 at 5:58 am #779At 8v8, the 3-3-1 (turning more into a 3-1-3) makes sense to me in how it translates into the 4-3-3. However, I’m still struggling with see which system is best for the 7v7 environment. The way I look at is during those early months/years at U9-U10 when they play 7v7 in our area, we will be focusing on the foundation activities to engrain habits. However, we’ll also start working on playing out of the back and some offensive choreography. Therefore, I’d like to pick Gary, Brian, et. al’s brains to see your opinion in how we can start to introduce those things within the 7v7 environment.
My initial thought is a 3-1-2 where you have a the back 3 and center mid (similar to back 5 at 11v11). The “2” would be more traditional wingers without a CF; however, placing them on the outside starts to introduce them to attacking with overloads down the wings. Is taking out the CF at 7v7 too much?
We play 3-2-1 right now; however, I think its pretty complicated and physically demanding to have the 2 mids tracking horizontally across the midfield as the ball switches.
Thanks in advance for the input!
December 23, 2013 at 4:18 am #833Trying to bring some possession based football to the South Island of New Zealand. We will be starting with a group of under 9s this March and will be playing in a 7v7 format so very interested in what formation works best. Am looking at implementing either a 3-2-1 or a 3-1-2 formation as the kids have only played 5v5 with no keeper prior to this year. So any suggestions on formation greatly received.
December 23, 2013 at 6:42 pm #860Playing Out of the Back
The eight-a-side format is very frequently used in these age groups not only because it is mandated by some leagues, but because in practice we rarely have 22 players to play the real game, so the 6 v. 6 comes in handy. When I decide what formation to use I tend to go back to the very basics of my coaching philosophy. I consider crucial to create training that mimics the game as closely as possible. The eight-a-side game can be used to mimic the eleven-a-side game in many different ways. I see the logic of playing 3-3-1, but for me the most important aspect of the 4-3-3 system is the three midfielders playing in a triangle or an upside down triangle and creating those passing triangles and diamonds that are so important to maintain possession and keep the ball moving. Think about the movement of the defensive midfielder within the half circle created by the two central backs and the outside backs. When I teach playing from the back I use the 2-3-2 or the 2-4-1 systems. The two backs and the two midfield wingers create the u-shape and the three remaining players play in the middle. This way all the possible passing combinations can be practiced when playing from the back.
December 26, 2013 at 9:21 am #921My U11 team plays 8 v 8 in Texas. We normally play a 3-3-1 but since we will be transitioning to 11 v 11 (4-3-3) in August we are going to switch to a 4-3 formation at 8v8 now to start training the back 4 and triangle midfield.
I’ll have two center defenders, left and right fullbacks that will be higher up the pitch and really busy obviously up and down the wings, a center mid/holding mid and two attacking mids. It’ll be like a 2-3-2 but not really because the full backs will be true full backs with attacking responsibilities.
Before I get started with this can anyone give me some advice on instructions for the triangle midfield? Movement? Spacing? Rotation?
December 27, 2013 at 2:37 am #987Having coached the 8 v 8 group for a while and advised many 7 v 7 extra teams Id suggest the following-
1) 8 v 8- play the 3-3-1 or 3-2-2 and in both have the center back play a traditional flat back 3/ if employing the 3-2-2 have your outside backs be active in overlaps and pressing high. Also, The 2 up top will need extra work at losing their man as they will be checking to the touch line from the middle of the field when the ball is on their side- Barca USA- plays the 3-3-1 and defends with three most of the time creating 2 diamonds, which results in more of a 3-1-3 look with a high forward. At the U9 level I cannot remember seeing the outsides back hold the ball/ or overlap, even when they had space. They relied upon creating 2 v 1 matchups and attacking with no more than 4. That changed as the age progressed
2) 7 v 7- This presents a problem as your going to give up either width or depth- Since you want to build from the back Id suggest a 3-1-2 and again allow the outside back to enter the attack and dribble when there is space.
Im interested in others comments on this
December 27, 2013 at 12:35 pm #1027I agree with John. Playing out of the back requires a deep CB to provide an outlet and swing the ball around the back. Playing your CB up high as a DCM forces your GK to become the only backwards option for your OBs.
Whenever your OB has the ball, he need to have 3 passing options (back to the CB, centrally to the CM or wide to the OM). That requires two wide players and two central players. As you swing the ball around, you’ll want to have two wide players on the other side of the field as well, to create width. Therefore, I think I would tend to play a 3-3-0 or a 3-3-1.
When I first started coaching 8v8, I started with a 2-3-2 because the formation creates default diagonal passing lanes, but it was difficult to get my two CB to alternate their positions so that one was always forward and the other back (avoiding the square pass between them) and I had difficulty getting 8 year old midfielders to remember to cover all the way back to help the weak side defender. The 3-3-1 put more kids in the right spot with a more tightly defined role that allowed them to focus on keeping possession and gave them more options to play backwards and develop patience.
December 27, 2013 at 1:51 pm #1037I believe the Barcelona youth teams do not always use the same formation at 7 v 7 and instead use a 2 – 3 – 1 system for one season and a 3-2-1 system for the other. The reasoning is that no 7 v 7 systems can mirror all of the scenarios that will be present in the 4-3-3, so a combination is used instead. The critical aspect of implementation is awareness of which patterns to train that will transfer to the 11 v 11 game.
Here is how I encourage our coaches to develop it (age groups and formats are for Indiana Soccer).
For U9, 1-3-1 (6 v 6)
- One defender – focus is on creating excellent individual defensive habits.
- League uses the “retreat line” rule, so one player is an overload during buildup.
- Just one defender means that other players must respect defensive responsibilities – avoids the “broken team” (just attackers and just defenders).
For U10, 2-2-1
- Two defenders – focus is on how defenders can control space with pressure and cover
- Introduction of the triangle during buildup (GK-LCB-RCB)
- Centerbacks are asked to carry the ball forward when not pressured in order to create midfield overload.
U11, 2-4-1 (switch to 8 v 8)
- Keeping two defenders simplifies the transition between formats, but forces defenders to become even better at managing space.
- Diamond midfield introduces the (GK-LCB-DM-RCB) association during buildup, as well as the defensive mechanism in which the defensive midfielder drops into the backline if a centerback is pulled wide.
- Buildup structure mirrors that of the back seven at 11 v 11. Two centerbacks, a pivot in front of them, two wide players, two central players at different heights between lines.
U12, 3-3-1
- Move to three defenders, understanding of line of cover should become automatized.
- Buildup shape becomes a double diamond, enabling passing patterns with a simple transfer to the 3-4-3 (triple diamond). Defenders must also learn to attract opponents during the build up to compensate for the loss of a player in the midfield area.
- The first system with two wide players on each side (outside defender and outside midfielder) means that combinations in wide positions should be taught, especially overlaps and underlaps. Familiarity with the 2-4-1 system from the previous season means that the overlap can be taught as a way to create the overload in midfield while still providing width.
U13, 3-4-3
- Once again, the basic defensive structure is retained even while game format changes. Despite the arrival at 11 v 11, positions are still relative to the 4-3-3 system. Players that will be fullbacks should be the wide midfielders and the future defensive midfielder should be comfortable at the base of the midfield diamond and as a libero in the back three.
- The back three is the basis for creating overloads, either against a forward two or by pulling midfielders out of position. All central defenders should be confident moving into midfield
- Triple diamond shape means that passing patterns from the 3-3-1 should be transferred to the 11 v 11 game.
U14, 4-3-3
- The wingbacks are pulled back and the defensive midfielder moves forward during the defensive phase to create the 4-1-4-1 shape. The mechanisms and patterns that have been trained for the past three years should make the transitions between phases simple to implement.
- Players have multiple buildup patterns and can adapt to varying situations.
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