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Guided Discovery and its children: “let them play” and “let ’em figure it out”
The refutation is very, very thorough and has yet to be disproved…. Please read before we proceed….
http://www.cogtech.usc.edu/publications/kirschner_Sweller_Clark.pdf
http://www.vincematsko.com/Talks/WorkedExamples/sweller_kirschner_clark_reply_ep07.pdf
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This topic was modified 9 years, 6 months ago by
As a teacher in the classroom it is fairly obvious why “let them play” and self discovery in a very pure sense would fail. It is akin to asking students to write essays without giving a prompt other than “just write”. Then following that vague assignment with no rubric of self-assessment so the student could ascertain for themselves what areas were weak in their unguided essay or external feedback on how to improve their work. The assumption is that by writing the student will improve as a writer. While there may be creative elements that evolve, the opposing reality is that the bad habits are further entrenched and harder to break. There is no reason to believe that this process would develop any differently in sports than it does in academic circles. Perhaps the best American sports example would be the failure of street ball players to succeed in formal basketball environments. After all when is the last time a street legend made it big in the NBA?
Great point Michael. No matter the endeavor, humans process and learn using a universal mechanism…. It’s how we evolved….
I was fortunate to go thru a 1st division academy while growing up in Argentina… We played SSGs with constraints in order to stimulate our decision-making process (game intelligence)… but always under the supervision of our trainers. They prioritized repetition and more importantly, the explanation of how and why we did everything. They believed in information. We didn’t bother to learn higher tactics until we got to 15 or so, everything up to that point was formalized and structured training. We had 5 formal training sessions every week and the rest of the time we spent it playing these small-sided games, which were designed to improve our individual techniques as well… The hours varied as we got older but it was on the order of 30-40 hrs a week of playing… The process was brutal and rarely was there a weekend when we didn’t have another kid(s) come in for a try-out and that meant the possible loss of a roommate and/or buddy. Survival of the fittest for sure; not only did you have to be physically strong but emotionally and psychologically strong.
Luis it is always interesting to see the amount of pressure that is on players in foreign youth academy’s to perform. One of the issues that I face with my boys is the level of comfort and security they have with their position on the team. The lack of pressure on the kids to improve when we were developing at the lower levels (silver, gold) has hurt them as we have moved up to the higher level (premier). Now those kids who had a basic skill set that allowed them to succeed at the lower levels but refused to push themselves are really struggling at the higher level. I just dealt with a parent who could not comprehend why his sons minutes were dwindling. Fortunately I capture some video during practices and was able to show him what his son was doing during practice. But there is no doubt that in places like Argentina, Brazil, or Europe a player who refused to push himself would be weeded out very quickly. This is the atmosphere that Klinnsman seems to want US players to throw themselves into, rather than the comforts of MLS (There is Steven Gerrard comment this week about this). Yet the vast majority of American media and mainstream soccer public think he is blasphemous for demanding this of his players. I don’t think US Soccer get where we want it to be until our players operating in the environment that you experienced in Argentina is the norm rather than the exception. That is why I think that Brian going to LAG is so significant. It really does create the first club with this atmosphere on the youth level. The real question is will the parents and players embrace the competition or run to other clubs when things don’t break their way.
The worst part is the sense of entitlement from kids and parents here, “we paid therefore we deserve…” mentality.
I think that a better mindset for parents is we paid for the opportunity to play, not paid for playing time. One of my favorite coaching conference memories was the late grate Don Meyer from Northern University. He was talking about how bad parents can be and he said something very close to the following: When Joey’s parents come up and complain about playing time. You ask them who they think Joey should be starting over or getting more playing time than. When they state Joey should be playing more than Johnny, you instruct them to call Johnny’s parents and explain to his parents why Joey should play more than Johnny. If they can come to an agreement then problem resolved (yeah right). Then he said if you get lucky the two parents go at it and you don’t have to deal with either of them anymore. It definitely got a big laugh from the coaches in the building.
<span style=”font-family: Lora, serif; font-size: 12px; line-height: 19.5px; background-color: #ffffff;”>I think that a better mindset for parents is we paid for the opportunity to play, not paid for playing time. One of my favorite coaching conference memories was the late grate Don Meyer from Northern University. He was talking about how bad parents can be and he said something very close to the following: When Joey’s parents come up and complain about playing time. You ask them who they think Joey should be starting over or getting more playing time than. When they state Joey should be playing more than Johnny, you instruct them to call Johnny’s parents and explain to his parents why Joey should play more than Johnny. If they can come to an agreement then problem resolved (yeah right). Then he said if you get lucky the two parents go at it and you don’t have to deal with either of them anymore. It definitely got a big laugh from the coaches in the building.</span>
Id argue that if the kid family pays he does deserve to play. I think thats the huge problem with our “development program”. Our system of pay to play is stupid. We need academies that kids play for free and take that argument away. I have a buddy at a top program who only will take full paying players for his teams as he wants his $10,000 pay check per team per year. Im a coach and a parent of a player. Im not taking my kid to a club -pay $3000 plus tournaments so he can sit on the bench. Now if an academy wants him and are going to foot the bill, then play him as little or as much as you want.
If my son is not assured 1/2 of the game he doesnt go to that club. As a consumer that my choice. I also tell the coach if he is not working hard in practice or misses then he can chat with me about limiting his playing time more, but if he is there every day competing and playing at the level of his peers he deserves to play. Im at every practice and game so I know what he is and is not doing. We coaches want our cake and eat it too.
As a coach I know insist on carrying a smaller squad to make sure all my kids play and yes, its cost me some games.
<span style=”font-family: Lora, serif; font-size: 12px; background-color: #fbfbfb;”>Id argue that if the kid family pays he does deserve to play. I think thats the huge problem with our “development program”. Our system of pay to play is stupid. We need academies that kids play for free and take that argument away. I have a buddy at a top program who only will take full paying players for his teams as he wants his $10,000 pay check per team per year. Im a coach and a parent of a player. Im not taking my kid to a club -pay $3000 plus tournaments so he can sit on the bench. Now if an academy wants him and are going to foot the bill, then play him as little or as much as you want.</span>
It sounds like that coach is coaching for a check. $10,000 for youth soccer is a bit ridiculous. To put in perspective our team pays $30 per month after they have paid for their card, uniform and $15 club fee for the year. All told our kids pay less than $500 for the year for Nor Cal Premier division soccer. There are no coaching fees and coaches pay there own way on everything.
<span style=”font-family: Lora, serif; font-size: 12px; background-color: #fbfbfb;”>If my son is not assured 1/2 of the game he doesnt go to that club. As a consumer that my choice. I also tell the coach if he is not working hard in practice or misses then he can chat with me about limiting his playing time more, but if he is there every day competing and playing at the level of his peers he deserves to play. Im at every practice and game so I know what he is and is not doing. We coaches want our cake and eat it too.</span>
If a player is at practice everyday and working hard they would be developing and therefore would play. But what about the kid who is not working hard or misses practices. They have paid, do they have equal access to playing time? If so, to me that sounds more recreational in nature than competetive.
With the team I coach I play all the kids that are at practice daily and train hard. We have a team rule that if you miss a practice it costs you 15 minutes of playing time per miss no matter who the player is (yep- even my #10) . If the player is not training hard Ill have a discussion with the player and the parents and if it continues then they too will get limited minutes. The latter has not been an issue. My number one rule is to not add players just to fill a team. Id rather have a limited supply of players than have similar ability than a few money kids that I have to “hide”.
<span style=”font-family: Lora, serif; font-size: 12px; line-height: 19.5px; background-color: #ffffff;”>To put in perspective our team pays $30 per month after they have paid for their card, uniform and $15 club fee for the year. All told our kids pay less than $500 for the year for Nor Cal Premier division soccer. There are no coaching fees and coaches pay there own way on everything.</span>
Thats a super fee structure and I can tell you that is not the norm. In Orange County CA- Id say 2,000 after tournaments is average but at a top south county club your looking at crazy fees. I know several coaches that are making 60-80 thousand a year as club coaches and they are not the main directors.
A few more things I’ve noticed in Clubs: the limited amount of actual training vs games ratio. Most of the “elite” academies in my area train twice a week and play 2-3 games each weekend. Yet individually I don’t see great development, either tactically or technically. I see that coaches here confuse positions on field for actual tactical training, so they play as an organized mob. Watching the USA’s U17 and U18, U19 play tells you that this collective mob doesn’t produce quality players on the international stage. One thing that was explained to me as a youngster has stuck with me, the rough English translation is this: “If you’re a winger or forward, you must be able to beat your opponent 1v1 if all other options are not available.”
I have two travel teams, one is a u9/10 and we play in a u11 league, the other is u10/11 and we play up in a U12 league. We have been overrun, rugby style in some games, but we are playing very well and getting better.
The most confusing topic is playing time and its correlation to development. How parents often don’t understand what that means.
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This topic was modified 9 years, 6 months ago by
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